Ron Way:
Hello everyone. Welcome to part-two of an original interview I had with William O. Walker Jr. Bill Walker has written a brand new book called Some Surprises from the Apostle Paul. If you didn't hear the first part, go back. Click on the website to part one, and listen to that because we're going to do a follow up. This is part two, second session, of this amazing book that he has written about the Apostle Paul. Why is that important? Well it's easy. Paul is one of the founders of our faith and in fact, some of the scholars in the past have said that he really is the founder of Christian faith. I'll let Bill ... In fact that's a good place to start Bill, this second time. Why are we even talking about the Apostle Paul? Was he important in the foundation of the Christian faith and how so?
Bill Walker:
I think we're talking about him because as you said in the first session, so much of the New Testament is either written by him or written about him, that he stands out, really above any of the other founders of Christianity. Now whether he was the founder, I think that's very debatable. I personally do not think he was and whether he was even the most important figure in early Christianity, I can't say for sure. He's simply the one we know the most about because we have the writings by him and about him, but he may have actually been no more important than Peter or James or John or any of the others.
Ron Way:
But historically speaking, and Bill this has always been kind of a mystery to me, because after Paul died, around the 60s, right?
Bill Walker:
Right.
Ron Way:
Yeah. Then we have another decade at least before we got Mark, the first gospel. Then another 50 years before we finish off the gospels and Acts. Really, almost half of everything in the New Testament deals with Paul, we don't even have any writings from the disciples, so he really is, he's the first person to write about Jesus and he's the closest we have to the physical Jesus. Why do you say he may be not as important?
Bill Walker:
We simply don't know about the other leaders because they don't have anything in the New Testament, by them or very little about them. It may be an accident of history that Paul's writings were preserved, other writings weren't. We just don't know. I'm not saying that he wasn't the most important. I'm just saying I don't think we can be certain of that.
Ron Way:
Don't we get many of our Christian ... In quotation mark, "Christian" concepts and rules, regulations, our dogmas, from Paul's philosophy?
Bill Walker:
Oh, absolutely. No question about it.
Ron Way:
Then one of the things we have to understand in history, in 70 AD, the Romans sacked Jerusalem. If there were any Christians, I know later there is a, we'll call it a remembrance, we don't know if it's true, that the early Christians were warned and so they took off and escaped Jerusalem but we don't find any writings of them for about 10 years. We're not so sure what happened to them, but the original founders, if they did have any writings, they were ... If there were any Christians still in Jerusalem they were killed. They were hauled off into slavery. That's it. There isn't any other choice. That's what the Romans did, so we just don't know what happened to that 10-year, decade-long period in the 70s. Do we have any other background that we know of? Historical background, Bill?
Bill Walker:
Well, let me back up just a second.
Ron Way:
Sure.
Bill Walker:
What you say about AD 70 or CE 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem and so on is certainly true, but by that time, there were Christian communities in other parts of the Mediterranean world, including all the way to Rome. There were a lot of Christians who were not really directly affected by what happened in Jerusalem.
Ron Way:
But do not our gospels tend to be apologetics? You begin to see them drift away from the original Jesus until you get into the great “I am” statements in John.
Bill Walker:
Yeah. I'm not sure even the earliest though, and Mark may or may not be the earliest gospel. That's another whole debate. I'm not sure how much actual history there is in those gospels either, like the Book of Acts. They have theological apologetic agenda, and I think they tell the story of Jesus in such a way as to promote whatever that agenda happens to be.
Ron Way:
Which was much later in time than the very humble man that taught in Galilee and in Judea. It had changed and morphed, easily into kind of a different religion. I want to take you back to your book because at the very end of part-one, we were talking about women and the church. These are just some of the surprises you'll find about the Apostle Paul in Bill Walker's book. Being a father of five daughters, I always found that his statements about women to be repugnant. He states in several of his letters that women are subordinate to men in church and society. They are what we call silly gadabouts. They shouldn't talk in church but rather ask their husbands if they want to know anything, et cetera.
These passages in the letters of Paul have been used for 2000 years to basically subjugate women to lesser roles in the church and society. But you say that the sentiments and statements in Timothy, Titus, Colossians, Ephesians and even in parts of Corinthians were never written by Paul. Share with our audience the background to these passages and what you see as Paul's view of women.
Bill Walker:
Well as you say, I think Paul didn't write any of the passages that call for the subordination of women. Most of them are in the letters that we call pseudonymous (written by people other than Pau)l after Paul's lifetime. The two passages in 1 Corinthians, I'm convinced were later interpolations. If we disregard all of those passages, then I think it becomes very clear that Paul was really radically egalitarian.
I argue this on the basis of several points. One is his incidental references to particular women. He speaks of some of them in very, very lofty terms. Calls them fellow workers and so on. In Galatians, you have the baptismal formula, in Christ there's neither male nor female. There's neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free. A radically egalitarian passage. In 1 Corinthians 7, which has often been taken as a put down of women in marriage, I think if you read it very carefully, it's very equally balanced in what it says to men and women. In marriage for example, men and women have the same rights. They have the same responsibilities. Everything is very, very equal. I'm convinced that Paul was really quite radically egalitarian in his views about women.
Ron Way:
I don't think we have to go much further than even with the letters to the Romans. Tell them who delivered that ... Folks, you have to understand; these letters that were dictated by Paul, and sent to various communities, were meant to be read out loud. So was the letter to the Romans, and who delivered that, William?
Bill Walker:
Well, we're not sure because again it gets into a question of what Paul wrote, what Paul didn't write and also what we call composite letters. Some of the letters we have are actually probably combinations of originally different, parts of originally different letters. In chapter 16 of Romans, in the first verse it says, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe."
Ron Way:
Correct.
Bill Walker:
"A deacon of the church at Cenchrea," and so on. It's been assumed that Phoebe was the one who delivered the letter to the Romans, but some scholars think that chapter 16 of Romans was originally part of a different letter, that later got attached to the letter to Roman. It is in chapter 16 of Romans that we have some of these incidental references to women, including a reference to one woman as an Apostle.
Ron Way:
That's correct.
Bill Walker:
“Junia, greet Andronicus,” and “Junia, my kins-people,” and “my fellow prisoners,” they are people of note among the Apostles and they were in Christ before me. Junia was apparently regarded as an Apostle. There's a fascinating story behind that because the translation I was just reading from, I had to paraphrase because it refers to the woman as Junius, which is masculine name, but it's, I think been well established that the name is actually Junia which is a feminine name, but until quite recently, people just couldn't believe that a woman could be an Apostle. They assumed that it was a masculine name. The Greek could go either way. It could be the masculine Junius or the feminine Junia, but it was clearly I think a woman.
Ron Way:
Yes, they met in women's houses. We know that. They were deacons of the church. It's just an amazing thing how our society tried to take the power of the women away. You can't believe the comments I get in from this show about how I'm going to hell because women have no part, and Jesus only had 12 men disciples and that's the way it should be and women should shut up. Still today, still today.
Bill Walker:
Oh yes. Oh yes. I mentioned Phoebe a few minutes ago, the person who may have carried the letter to Roman. I referred to her as a deacon. The translation, the Revised Standard Version that I'm looking at here says a deaconess. Again, the assumption was a woman could not be a deacon, that there might have been a kind of subordinate order called deaconesses but a woman couldn't be a deacon. The Greek there is clearly deacon. The same form that's applied to men.
Ron Way:
That's right. It just drives me insane, especially because I believe that he was egalitarian and he did give them responsibilities, and was grateful for them.
Bill Walker:
Yes. Absolutely.
Ron Way:
Talk about Paul's view of sex because it's been very negatively spoken of before, but we're not so sure about all that. So let's talk about Paul's views. Can you please? And that's another surprise in your book.
Bill Walker:
Yes. Paul has been accused of, well there was an article not long ago entitled, "St. Paul Hated Sex." I wrote a response to that. My chapter in the book is a revised version of that. I think that simply cannot stand up because if you look at various passages in 1 Thessalonians, in 1 Corinthians, in Romans, what you find I think is that Paul certainly didn't hate sex. He did think that the unmarried state was preferable and I think the reason he thought that was the return of Christ would be very soon, and so people shouldn't change their current status. He also thought, quite frankly, that people who were unmarried, perhaps could be freer to serve the Lord without the distraction of a marriage.
Ron Way:
Correct.
Bill Walker:
Beyond that, what he says about sex ... for example, in 1 Corinthians 7, he implies that marriage is an honorable estate and certainly this would include sex. He mentions that the, he says, "Don't I have a right to be accompanied by a," the Greek says a sister-wife, as also the other Apostles do, which indicates that at least some of the other Apostles were married, and I think suggests that Paul maybe wishes he were married.
Ron Way:
Or did have a companion?
Bill Walker:
That he wishes everybody could be at the same state he's in.
Ron Way:
That's correct. I have always wondered about that one also, where it says shouldn't I have the right to do that too? Basically, does that mean that he had on occasion had women companions? I mean Jesus did.
Bill Walker:
I don't know whether it means that. Some scholars, I haven't heard this suggested recently, but some scholars have suggested that Paul may at one point have been married and even that when he became a Christian perhaps his wife didn't and they therefore split up. That might account for what people saw as his negative attitude toward marriage, but that's pure speculation.
Ron Way:
Right. Let me go into probably one of the touchiest things for a lot of people in the church, and that's homosexuality.
Bill Walker:
Yeah.
Ron Way:
Whew. It's been a huge social issue in the world over the past couple of decades. Much of the anti-gay rhetoric has come from the churches, at least the more evangelical churches, who consider it as an unforgivable sin, and most of them quote Paul. Paul, our friend Paul, to back up their claims. Paul does seem to be quite clear about this issue, but is it as black and white as it seems? I've spoken with Michael White at some length. I think you know him from WestStar [ed: a group of about 200 New Testament scholars], about this subject and he would totally disagree with that interpretation and so did you. So tell us about this.
Bill Walker:
Yes. Well a number of years ago I was invited to give a lecture at what's called the SOL, S-O-L Center at the University Presbyterian Church here in San Antonio. They asked me to speak on what the New Testament says about homosexuality. That was the first time I had really looked into it very carefully. I gave the lecture, and then I worked on it more as years passed and have given it several other places.
Until a year or so ago, I quite regularly delivered this once each semester in New Testament class at Trinity University. What I do in my chapter is I discuss six, what I call propositions.
- The first one is that strictly speaking, the New Testament says nothing at all about homosexuality. No word in there that should be translated that way.
- The second proposition is there are at most only three passages that may talk about it.
- My third proposition is that two of those three passages simply list in miscellaneous, what I call grab bags, of unacceptable behavior, a couple of Greek terms that are sometimes translated to refer to homosexuality, but,
- My fourth proposition is the terms there may not refer to homosexuality at all. They're two Greek words there and the translation of those two words is very, very problematic.
Ron Way:
What would they mean?
Bill Walker:
The bottom line is, I think the New Testament and Paul, and the only letters attributed to Paul, that there's anything that might refer to homosexuality. I think it really doesn't say anything at all about what we today think of as homosexuality. Therefore, I don't think the New Testament gives us any direct guidance on dealing with homosexuality and related issues.
Ron Way:
Well, if he's not talking about homosexuality, what is he speaking about?
Bill Walker:
I think he may be talking about one form of homosexuality, and it was a form where you have usually an older man and a young boy and the older man would either purchase or coerce the sexual favors of the young boy. This was an exploitive, degrading kind of homosexuality, nothing at all like what we today see as committed, long-term, monogamous sexual relationships.
Ron Way:
Are you talking about pedophilia?
Bill Walker:
I think Paul may have referred to that and he certainly condemns it. In Romans, in the first chapter, which I personally think is a later interpolation, addition, but I'm in the definite minority on that, there I think Paul, I think or the writer, does definitely talk about homosexuality, but it presupposes some things that are highly debatable. One is that idolatry is what leads to homosexuality. You worship false Gods and that leads you into homosexuality. I think that's certainly not born out by the current observation. It assumes that homosexuality is unnatural, and I don't think we really know a lot about what's natural or unnatural, and it assumes that homosexuality is an expression of insatiable lust, that people simply can't get enough sex with the opposite sex, so they have to go on to get more. I think again that's a highly problematic presupposition. Though I think Paul may very well refer to homosexuality, I don't think what he has to say really relates directly to what we are discussing today.
Ron Way:
In fact, the word homosexual was inserted later into the bible, only 100 years or so ago? Wasn't it? In the translations?
Bill Walker:
Well the term actually was coined only in the late 19th century, by an Austrian psychiatrist. Up until that time the term homosexual, homosexuality didn't even exist. In fact, the who notion of sexual orientation, this is really a modern notion, something that the ancients really had no concept of.
Ron Way:
What were the Greek words that were used that now are being translated as homosexual, but before that they weren't? What is the word and what do they mean?
Bill Walker:
Well in 1 Corinthians, the two words, one is malochoi, which is plural of malochos, and it simply means soft, like a soft pillow or a soft cloth or something of that sort.
Ron Way:
So he's talking about a soft, feminine man.
Bill Walker:
It could be used that way, yes. To refer to somebody who was lacking in courage or in strength. In other words someone who exhibited what were then considered to be feminine-like traits. To call someone effeminate is not necessarily to call them homosexual.
Ron Way:
Right. Big difference.
Bill Walker:
So a malochos may or may not refer to homosexuality. The other term, arsenokoites first shows up in 1 Corinthians. So far as we know, the word was never used prior to that. Literally if I can say this on the air, it means a “male fucker,” comes from two words, arse, male and kritas, which literally means bed, but it's sometimes used like going to bed with somebody.
We don't really know what this word means because it, as I say, it never shows up until 1 Corinthians and it's very seldom used afterwards. Where it does appear later, it usually refers to some sort of economic exploitation, like ... You know we use sexual language without necessarily having sex in mind.
Ron Way:
That's right.
Bill Walker:
I say I got “screwed” on that business deal, I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about exploitation.
Ron Way:
That's what makes it so hard when scholars like you try to translate Paul’s Greek letters that we have, because we don't know what they really meant. They're using slang or colloquialisms.
Bill Walker:
Exactly. We don't know what it meant in the first century. We know what it would literally mean if you take the two parts and define each of them separately and then put those two definitions together, but in the first century idiom, we really don't know what it means.
Ron Way:
We all know, and I'll say it this way, if you call someone an M-F, you know that you're not literally talking about someone that has sexual relations with his mother. That's exactly what we're dealing with.
Bill Walker:
That's one of the examples I used in the chapter.
Ron Way:
That's right. Guess what, William? We've gone through another whole program. Folks, if you're interested in the bible, if you're interested in the birth of your faith as a Christian, this is a book you've got to get. It is a fascinating read and it is by William Walker Jr. It's called, Some Surprises from the Apostle Paul. Thank you so much for staying for a second segment of this interview. I am so grateful that you took the time out of your busy day. Thank you, William.
Bill Walker:
Thank you. I've really enjoyed this.
Ron Way:
Folks, all you have to do is go to our website, where you're listening to this interview, and click on the book cover, it is right there beside the interview, and it will take you right to the publisher, where you can buy the book directly from the publisher. You can also go, of course to Amazon and get it there. It's called, Some Surprises from the Apostle Paul by William Walker. Thank you again William for a wonderful time today. I am most grateful and it was a ball. I hope to see you at the Weststar Institute gathering coming up in the spring.
Bill Walker:
Thank you.
Ron Way:
Take care my friend.
Bill Walker:
You too.
Ron Way:
Ladies and gentlemen. That's it. Until next time, this is Ron Way, your host of AuthorTalk and Rising Life Media. Until next time, I remain faithfully yours.