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Interview
Carlos Richard “Intimate Partner Violence in the Black Church” |
Ron Way:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another edition of AuthorTalk and Rising Light Media where we interview some of the most fascinating religious and spiritual authors in the world. Today our guest is Carlos Richard, who has written a powerful new book entitled, "Intimate Partner Violence in the Black Church." He has almost three decades of ministerial experience and serves as pastor of the Tabernacle Church in North Portland, Oregon. Dr. Richard also is a member of the adjunct faculty at Warner Pacific College. He has an amazing amount of experience working with children and families in nonprofit and government agencies. Dr. Richard also served as former co-chair of the statewide diversity conference and is a former commissioner and chair of the Oregon Commission on Black Affairs.
Welcome to AuthorTalk, Carlos. I'm so glad you could join us today.
Carlos Richard:
Well, thank you so much. It is good to be here to conduct this interview and talk about the book. I appreciate the invitation and thank you, again. I'm so happy we have an opportunity to have a discussion.
Ron Way:
Carlos, I must tell you that I approached your book with a great deal of trepidation. First of all, it deals with a subject that can be, and is, taboo in many religious settings. Secondly, you're dealing with the Black church, and I'm white. I certainly am not one that could or even should be commenting on problems within the Black community. But partner violence is such an important subject that I'm glad to help expose it and lay out ways to combat it.
And, to personalize this just a bit, I will tell you that this subject is near and dear to me. I have witnessed abuse of women and children in my own world, which includes two of my own five daughters being raped by male predators. And I'm also reminded of recent scandals of male pedophilia by priests within the Catholic church. What you're describing is a universal problem that must be confronted and dealt with.
So, with that said, I must ask you what was the catalyst that motivated you to write your new book about violence, or as you call it, IPV, intimate Partner Violence, in the Black church? What motivated you? And why now?
Carlos Richard:
Well, I think that during my time in the doctoral program at George Fox University, now called Portland Seminary, in our first class we were asked to think about a practical ministry problem that we wanted to write about for our dissertations. It was in that first class that I decided to write about domestic violence or intimate partner violence in the Black church. One, I knew it was a subject matter that needed to be talked about that was swept under the rug and sort of put on the back burner. Two, through life experiences in the church, and also observing my great-grandmother, Elizabeth Joshua, counsel women in the church who I later found out were being abused. It provided me that platform. It provided me the foundation and ultimately the motivation to write the book.
The book is not really to expose abusers, per se. The whole notion of writing this book was to inform the Black church and to inform any member of any church about the subject of intimate personal violence and how do we provide resources to victims, survivors, and families.
Ron Way:
Well, you know, Carlos, I was staggered by some of the facts that you cite in your book. Here' are a couple that just hit me right in the face. Perhaps you can comment on them when I finish this. Here it is.
Number one: "Nearly 76% of women have been raped or physically assaulted by current or former spouses, partners, dates, or acquaintances at some point during their lives." And to that I would add something that you do not mention, a male parent. Because they're not spouses, but parents. A father, can beat a child or sexually abuse a female child.
This is number two: "Black women suffer deadly violence from family members at a rate higher than almost any other social group in America. Black women experience violence by intimate partners at a rate of 35% higher than white females, and 22 times higher than other ethnicities. Children who witness abuse in the home are nine times more likely to abuse or accept abuse and perpetuate the cycle."
Help us to understand what's going on in the Black community, Carlos.
Carlos Richard:
Well, I think what's going on in a sector of the Black community is a number of factors. I believe one of the main factors that sort of contributes to IPV at higher rates as compared to other ethnicities is the socio-economic factor. When you have communities or sectors of the community particularly in the Black community that are impoverished, indigent, lacking resources, an educational system that does not meet the needs of the children, fathers who are not in the home for various reasons, I think these are all factors and more that contribute to this experience of IPV at a higher rate in the Black community.
Again, when you talk about the children, when those children constantly and consistently witness domestic violence or intimate personal violence in the home ... Sometimes you have situations where the mother has three, four, five children and those children could be by two to three to four different men. And depending on what those relationships yield in terms of the fruit, the children observe DV (Domestic Violence) constantly and on a consistent basis.
I think the other thing that contributes to that is some of the stereotypes that we see in Hollywood. Some of the stereotypes that we see in different music genres that are embraced by the Black community. With that said, yeah, some of it is reality, but we gotta get to the root cause of why it is reality. And when you talk about domestic violence or intimate personal violence on a broader community scale, the statistic that you quoted, some of the data there, that 76% of women are raped, attacked, or abused by someone that they know.
When I wrote this book, here's what I didn't find, Ron. I didn't find a lot of statistics that were specific to the religious faith of a particular set of women who were abused. So for example, if a woman does seek some type of assistance from a domestic violence advocate resource center in that particular community, they don't really keep statistics on the religious beliefs or faiths of those women.
Ron Way:
Sure.
Carlos Richard:
But here's what we do know, Ron, especially in the Black community. Black folks, especially down South, go to church, and these individuals who go to church are the same individuals who live in the community and experience IPV.
Ron Way:
We spend a lot of time here on AuthorTalk on Jesus or Christianity and the church. So I have a natural interest in the scriptural basis for the unique problem in the Black church because you really went into that; its ministers and its male members. You discuss in the book how pastors and church leaders have misinterpreted scriptural text to support and justify the control and violence against women.
And so my first question is: What biblical verses are used to set this stage for male dominance? Then next: How do pastors and church leaders correct this and properly interpret the biblical text to reduce violence in the church, especially in the Black church, which is you're dealing with?
Carlos Richard:
Specific scripture texts that come to mind come out of the book of Ephesians the fifth chapter when Paul, in his letter to the Ephesian church, talks about marriage roles for men and women, for husbands and wives. And another text out of first Peter, chapter two, I believe verses nine through fifteen, where it talks about how women should not usurp authority over the man. And so those two scripture texts in particular. And also, I believe in first Corinthians, chapter seven where Paul discusses with the Corinthian church, first Corinthians chapter seven, first Corinthians chapter eleven, about the order of the relationships. And so, God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of the woman. Paul sort of lays that out to the Corinthian church.
But when we look at the scriptures, and a pastor or a church leader decides that they're going to take the perspective of dominance over leadership, that's where a lot of the misinterpretations comes into play. So, they would take a text that was written in Greek, translate it in English, not go back to Greek to get a full understanding of the Greek text. They would look at what was written in English, they would run with that, and that's how this whole notion of males being the dominate, tyrannical leader came into play and the woman became submissive, subservient, and basically have no role.
Well, I discuss in the book that's really not how it was intended from the beginning in the book of Genesis. Paul comes back in Galatians three and he talks about, "For in Christ, there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek."
Ron Way:
Right.
Carlos Richard:
And so again, that is also a larger part of what happened that I discuss in chapter two with just society in general with male dominance.
How can it be corrected? I think it can be corrected two ways. One, with more and more pastors and church ministers and church leaders attending Bible college and seminary to ensure that they obtain a correct understanding and transliteration of the text that they read, one. And then two, apply that the way it's supposed to be applied in context to the congregation. And two, for those who may not be able to afford to go to school or really have the time to put into school, there are many commentaries. There are a plethora of books around this world, where great theologians have properly interpreted the meaning of the text so that an individual can obtain that information and properly educate their parishioners.
Because if we keep going down the road of male dominance versus male leadership, then IPV is gonna be really, really hard to address in the Christian church and particularly in the Black church.
Ron Way:
I couldn't agree with you more. The first historical writings we have were letters from Paul, written decades before the first Gospels were penned. And the further time passed from the historical Jesus, the more men tried to establish their authority. Most scholars in fact believe that the famous excerpt from Paul saying, "Woman are to be silent in the churches, they're not to be permitted to speak but must be in submission as the law says," was probably inserted in Paul's letter many years after he died. Because Paul talks about women who lead churches, and he even entrusted Phoebe, a woman, to carry his famous letter to the Romans and read it to all the Roman churches. Later, however, the faith becomes more and more male dominated. And you find that reflected in the later writings, such as the Epistles, which came much, much later.
Carlos Richard:
Well, and I think for example, you take Peter's general Epistle to the Christians that were scattered. In first Peter, I believe, 2:9-15, where it says, "For he suffers neither woman ..." What Peter says actually, he doesn't recommend a woman usurp authority over the man. So, when you go back and really delve into the text, right ... I know we don't have time to really do that here. But when you go back and delve into the text, and you look at the historical aspect of what Peter was dealing with, we will see, one, that's the only place in the Bible where you will find that scripture. So it's not like you're gonna find that text in Peter's writings, in Paul's writings, et cetera, et cetera.
I think the other thing we have to consider is the many women that Jesus surrounded himself with, either after he ministered to those women and they became disciples and followers. And then we have to look at Paul's ministry as well.
Ron Way:
Right.
Carlos Richard:
Where in Romans 16 and 8, I believe he mentions a lady by the name of Julia. So, Paul, he talks about Priscilla. There are many, many women that God used in ministry. And when we take one text out of First Peter 2:9-15, and make that applicable to all of Christianity and miss the fact that Peter was just dealing with the Christians in that particular region. That's where the mistake comes in and all of a sudden, women have to take a subservient role, which means you have no authority, you have no permission to do anything in the church except menial tasks that have been stereotypical assigned to women, like cooking in the kitchen, working in the nursery, children's ministry, et cetera, et cetera.
No. I mean, I believe men and women in the church have equal footing. And until we get to that point to where we start properly interpreting the text, some ministries will continue to deal with this and thus use this in some instances to support the notion of IPV in the church.
Ron Way:
I agree. Let me just follow up with that because I was really disheartened to read you say that the subject of intimate partner violence is still not openly discussed in the Black church. What did you find are the underlying reasons for that? And is it changing, hopefully?
Carlos Richard:
Well, I think some of the underlying reasons, at least that I've researched, is we can no longer camouflage IPV under the umbrella of spirituality. So, there has to be a separation of spirituality from IPV. I think also the reason why IPV is not discussed in a lot of Black churches ... Now I'm going outside of the month of October, which is domestic violence month. 'Cause a lot of people have things that they do, events that they do. But outside of October, when we have male church leaders in significant and prominent positions in the Black church who find themselves in situations where their wives are abused and their children are victimized because of the abuse, we in the Black church have to call it like it is and call it what it is, IPV, and we just have to address it.
I think another reason why it's not dealt with is what we just discussed in terms of how scripture is interpreted in terms of the roles between men and women and what that means not only in the church, but what it also means in the home. And until we actually get to a point where I think as my book title says, “Moving from Awareness to Policy Development,” I think we will sort of take a wait-and-see approach to every situation that comes our way.
And I think we do need to be fair because there are some false reports of abuse that happen. But, I mean, let's be real, the number of false reports compared to the number of legitimate reports, legitimate reports heavily and significantly outweigh some false reports.
So, we have to get to a point to where we separate intimate personal violence, and DV, away from spirituality. And then I think I would encourage pastors to get educated about IPV so that they know how to address these issues when their congregants come. I think lastly, I'll say in terms of why does it need to be addressed, because in the book I mention there's a significant number of pastors who just do not understand how to handle these issues when they become aware of them or they come across their desk.
Ron Way:
Let me ask you a question, Carlos. In the Catholic church it's become very, very public; and not being a Catholic I can't, with any great specificity tell you what's going on in the church, but hopefully they are trying to correct the ways of these deviant priests. But in the Black community and churches in the various denominations, is there a denomination-wide understanding and effort to reach out to their pastors to educate them?
Carlos Richard:
I believe that there is. However, with each pastor having autonomy and complete autonomy in terms of how they lead their congregations spiritually, that becomes the issue as to why pastors really don't educate themselves. And I think also it's out of fear as well.
Dr. Ron Clark constantly does domestic violence trainings, and he invites a lot of different pastors and the response has not been what I know he would like it to be. Until we can help pastors understand that IPV in the church is real, and present, that IPV happens in every church…
Ron Way:
Yes, it does.
Carlos Richard:
It happens in every church. And I think ... Go ahead.
Ron Way:
And it happens in almost every family. My wife and I don't speak about violence toward women to our friends, but it happened twice in my own family.
Carlos Richard:
Yeah. I think, and again, I think helping individuals have courageous conversations about IPV/DV, is so very important to the family, to the community, and to the church. Again, if pastors relegate IPV to a family issue, because this is what happened in the broader community when law enforcement is sometimes, at least in the past, was called to a home because there was a report of abuse. A lot of officers in the past would relegate it to a family issue, separate the man and the woman for a couple of days, and then allow the abuser to go back home. I appreciate what I see today where they're taking a better approach to that.
But if pastors, again, think that it's either a family issue, Ron, or they believe it's a spiritual issue, that's when it becomes problematic and that's when it can become very dangerous for women and children who are left in that situation to try to pray and fast the demons away so that their husbands would be made whole. We have to separate it out. We have to deal with both issues separately and really put emphasis on the IPV.
Ron Way:
Carlos, this is such an important book. Our audience really needs to read this.
On the website that you're looking at as you listen to this interview, you can simply click on the cover of the book and it'll go right to the publisher's website where you can buy the book at the lowest online price available. And if you're experienced this problem in your church, buy the book and give it to your pastor. Slip it into the in-box because they have to understand this. They have to understand what's going on. They have to be educated. And you can help them and help the women in your church and children by doing so.
One thing before I let you go, Carlos, if you don't mind. You mentioned earlier that in some of the Black families you've got three, four, five different fathers, and the woman is raising the children on her own. She's working two jobs. The kids are raising themselves, or a grandparent is trying. But in the Black community, unfortunately, 75% of the births they say are now without the father in the home. That's got to affect all of this, doesn't it?
Carlos Richard:
Yeah. I think it's very, very important for fathers or potential fathers to understand the role that they can play in helping to reduce and eliminate domestic violence. I think this is significant for the children when the father is in the home because I think children are less likely to either abuse or choose an abusive partner.
But I think even in that, Ron, I think this is very, very imperative for counseling when individuals want to be married. During that counseling period, I think whoever the individual is who's doing the counseling should have one or two sessions to talk about domestic violence to ensure that both individuals understand what it is and how to avoid repeating that cycle so that it doesn't trickle down to the children. So, fathers in the home, very, very, very important, especially for our young females.
Ron Way:
I couldn't agree with you more, I really couldn't.
Folks, I can't reiterate enough what a great book this is. Carlos, if you saw my copy of your book, I have tabs all the way through the text, because it's such an important work. I thank you for writing it.
Carlos Richard:
Thank you for having me, and thank you for allowing me to do this interview. Again, I will echo your sentiment. I think any and everybody should get a copy of this book whether you're in church or not. Get a copy of this book so that we can all understand the basic signs and symptoms of IPV and then understand how to deal with it so that we can ensure that we provide some type of assistance and protection for victims, survivors, and their family.
Ron Way:
Amen. And you do a wonderful job in the book of making suggestions how we can begin to change and to heal, which is so necessary.
Carlos Richard:
Yes.
Ron Way:
Thank you again, Carlos Richard. I always say your name backwards, I don't know why, but it's Carlos Jermaine Richard. The name of the book is, "Intimate Partner Violence in the Black Church." Click on the book cover and it'll be sent to you right away. Thank you again, Carlos, for being a part of AuthorTalk and Rising Light Media. I'm so grateful that we were able to make a connection today and you could be on the show with me. Thank you.
Carlos Richard:
Thank you, again.
Ron Way:
Thank you tp everyone for listening to another fascinating AuthorTalk interview. Until we meet again, I remain faithfully yours, Ron Way for AuthorTalk and Rising Light Media.
