Interview
Courtney Hall Lee
“Black Madonna: A Womanist Look at Mary of Nazareth”
BONUS EDITION
Ron Way:
Hello everybody. Welcome to another edition of AuthorTalk. This is a bonus edition. I have been interviewing Courtney Hall Lee, about her new book called, Black Madonna; A Womanist's Look At Mary of Nazareth. If you heard Part-1, you know that I teased you with this bonus edition. I'm going to get into that in a second.
Just to let you know, if you're listening to this part first, go back and listen to Part One, the first interview. There we really get into the Madonna in detail, but I have something I couldn't cover. It blew me away, because I guess I just never thought about it being a Christian belief and/or the honoring of Mary. I'm not well versed in Islam. Evidently, Courtney Hall Lee is.
Courtney Lee:
Welcome to AuthorTalk Courtney. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to talk about your new book, Black Madonna.
Thank you. I'm so glad to talk to you. I'm really excited.
Ron Way:
I want to talk to you about, Islam, Courtney, and its connection to Mary. You exposed me to this subject by reading your book. I think it's part of your book that's fascinating. We have a great many Muslim listeners on our podcasts. I hear from them all the time. A lot of times they're arguing with me on Facebook. At least it's polite and it's wonderful. This is a great bridge between the two faiths.
Courtney, teach us about Mary and the Islamic faith?
Courtney Lee:
Well, this is something that was an absolute joy for me to learn, while I was researching. I don't have any formal training, or expertise on the Islamic faith. I read as much as I could, and I read as much as I could from the Koran about Mary. I think part of the reason that this area really fascinated me, was because of my time at Hartford seminary, which is actually an interfaith seminary. I took some classes about Christian theology, including Christology, with Muslim students. That was such an amazing opportunity to hear some of these different views about Jesus and Mary, from Muslim people.
I for one, didn't know the extent of the appearance of Jesus and especially Mary in the Koran. I quickly learned that, I believe that Mary is the only woman that mentioned by name in the Koran. She's certainly the only woman that has a surah, or a chapter named for her. They go a little bit more into her story. I talk about it in the book. It's a little bit more related to one of the Apocryphal Gospels that gives a little bit more about Mary's backstory and her parentage, and how it is that she ended up in her situation, and being the mother of god, or mother of Jesus, the Theotokos.
Getting to read that, and then getting to compare what goes on in the Koran with some of the lesser known gospels was just really enriching to me. I saw so many things that made me ask questions about Christian faith and the way that we see her in Christianity. It was just truly fascinating
Ron Way:
It is, and you know, it's interesting, because as Christians, we seem to be bumping heads so horribly with the Muslim faith right now, because of the extremist views of some of them. I find that, in our audience, and I literally get... I've had up to 16,000 people on a Facebook chat at one time. I get a lot of Muslims. They're very respectful. They would consider Jesus as a prophet, instead of the son of God. I mean, there's the difference between the two faiths. They have great respect for Jesus. Sometimes we don't get that view in the news today. There is a lot of misunderstanding out there.
Courtney Lee:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think it is important for Christians to understand that both he and his mother Mary, or Miriam I believe she would be called ...
Ron Way:
Right.
Courtney Lee:
In Islam, are very much respected in that Jesus is considered a prophet. One of the first things I learned about Mary and Jesus from the Islamic perspective was, in that Christology class, we were talking about Jesus preaching at the temple as a young boy. A Muslim student said, "Yeah, it reminds me of the time when he was a baby and he spoke up, defending his mother's chastity." All of us Christians were like, "What?"
Ron Way:
What is he talking about?
Courtney Lee:
That's not... Yeah, that's not in there. I've never heard that. He was like, "It's not? You know, that's kind of one of the most important parts of the story in the Koran." And so, that night I went and I read it. I realized that Jesus was considered to be a prophet.
Mary is really viewed as sort of an expression of perfected womanhood in Islam. I think that sometimes people want to throw babies out with bath water. They might be so concerned or put-off by the fact that people of other faiths don't see Jesus as God, as divine. They seem him as a prophet.
Whereas, I say, "How awesome is that?" That's a huge commonality. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, but to know these were real historical people, that made an impact on many people in that part of the world, who went on to go into other faiths, that the fact that he and Mary were in their faith and important to me, it should be celebrated more. I wish that more Christians knew about this. I didn't know at all.
Ron Way:
Yes. We're not educated in the history of the faith. Do you remember what the apocryphal gospel is that they use? Islam is based a lot of this on Gospel? Do you remember, which one that is?
Courtney Lee:
I knew you were going to ask me and I'm having a bit of a brain lapse. Is it a gospel of Thomas? Is that right?
Ron Way:
Thomas, that’s correct, which we think is probably composed 200 hundred plus years after Jesus’ death. You know, people don't even know that some of our gospels... You know, the date of their composition ranges up to probably right after the beginning of the second century (along with the Gospel of John), and with the Acts of the Apostles (written by the author of the Gospel of Luke).
Thomas was the gospel that they picked. We've recently just discovered it in the west. If you're interested, there are a lot of other gospels you can read, that aren't the four included in the Canon. They came later, and represent different traditions within the Christian communities that evolved later on. It's fascinating reading.
Courtney Lee:
It really is. I sort of thing of it, when have the four Gospels that made it into our version of the bible; we have three synoptic gospels that more or less follow the same kind of time line. Whereas, John is different. To me it's very much a post Easter gospel. It writes about Christ from a much loftier place, more of a divine place, that a ...
Ron Way:
Higher Christology right?
Courtney Lee:
Right. Exactly. I see John as being a bridge between something like Mark, that seemed really close to what was happening, trying to be historical, versus something like gnostic gospels that are coming many years later, where you people have already learned about Jesus' resurrection and made their opinions about that. Seeing how it's treated, by later people, both in these Gnostic gospels and the Koran, I think is really interesting. I think it tells us a lot about the early church if we spend some time there.
Ron Way:
Its' a fascinating period of our history, or mutual history. It's one that I've spend the last 30 plus years studying. Oh my gosh. I can't thank you enough Courtney, for being with us here on our AuthorTalk Show. Thank you, Courtney Hall Lee. Thank you again for the Black Madonna, a Womanist's Look at Mary of Nazareth. Thank you for being on the show.
Courtney Lee:
Oh you're so welcome. Thank you for letting me come to talk about Mary.
Ron Way:
You bet. Have a wonderful day and thanks again.
Courtney Lee:
All right. Thank you. You too.
Ron Way:
Ladies and gentlemen, that's it for the bonus section. Until next time, when we meet again. I remain faithfully yours, Ron Way. Bye, bye.
Courtney Hall Lee
“Black Madonna: A Womanist Look at Mary of Nazareth”
BONUS EDITION
Ron Way:
Hello everybody. Welcome to another edition of AuthorTalk. This is a bonus edition. I have been interviewing Courtney Hall Lee, about her new book called, Black Madonna; A Womanist's Look At Mary of Nazareth. If you heard Part-1, you know that I teased you with this bonus edition. I'm going to get into that in a second.
Just to let you know, if you're listening to this part first, go back and listen to Part One, the first interview. There we really get into the Madonna in detail, but I have something I couldn't cover. It blew me away, because I guess I just never thought about it being a Christian belief and/or the honoring of Mary. I'm not well versed in Islam. Evidently, Courtney Hall Lee is.
Courtney Lee:
Welcome to AuthorTalk Courtney. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to talk about your new book, Black Madonna.
Thank you. I'm so glad to talk to you. I'm really excited.
Ron Way:
I want to talk to you about, Islam, Courtney, and its connection to Mary. You exposed me to this subject by reading your book. I think it's part of your book that's fascinating. We have a great many Muslim listeners on our podcasts. I hear from them all the time. A lot of times they're arguing with me on Facebook. At least it's polite and it's wonderful. This is a great bridge between the two faiths.
Courtney, teach us about Mary and the Islamic faith?
Courtney Lee:
Well, this is something that was an absolute joy for me to learn, while I was researching. I don't have any formal training, or expertise on the Islamic faith. I read as much as I could, and I read as much as I could from the Koran about Mary. I think part of the reason that this area really fascinated me, was because of my time at Hartford seminary, which is actually an interfaith seminary. I took some classes about Christian theology, including Christology, with Muslim students. That was such an amazing opportunity to hear some of these different views about Jesus and Mary, from Muslim people.
I for one, didn't know the extent of the appearance of Jesus and especially Mary in the Koran. I quickly learned that, I believe that Mary is the only woman that mentioned by name in the Koran. She's certainly the only woman that has a surah, or a chapter named for her. They go a little bit more into her story. I talk about it in the book. It's a little bit more related to one of the Apocryphal Gospels that gives a little bit more about Mary's backstory and her parentage, and how it is that she ended up in her situation, and being the mother of god, or mother of Jesus, the Theotokos.
Getting to read that, and then getting to compare what goes on in the Koran with some of the lesser known gospels was just really enriching to me. I saw so many things that made me ask questions about Christian faith and the way that we see her in Christianity. It was just truly fascinating
Ron Way:
It is, and you know, it's interesting, because as Christians, we seem to be bumping heads so horribly with the Muslim faith right now, because of the extremist views of some of them. I find that, in our audience, and I literally get... I've had up to 16,000 people on a Facebook chat at one time. I get a lot of Muslims. They're very respectful. They would consider Jesus as a prophet, instead of the son of God. I mean, there's the difference between the two faiths. They have great respect for Jesus. Sometimes we don't get that view in the news today. There is a lot of misunderstanding out there.
Courtney Lee:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think it is important for Christians to understand that both he and his mother Mary, or Miriam I believe she would be called ...
Ron Way:
Right.
Courtney Lee:
In Islam, are very much respected in that Jesus is considered a prophet. One of the first things I learned about Mary and Jesus from the Islamic perspective was, in that Christology class, we were talking about Jesus preaching at the temple as a young boy. A Muslim student said, "Yeah, it reminds me of the time when he was a baby and he spoke up, defending his mother's chastity." All of us Christians were like, "What?"
Ron Way:
What is he talking about?
Courtney Lee:
That's not... Yeah, that's not in there. I've never heard that. He was like, "It's not? You know, that's kind of one of the most important parts of the story in the Koran." And so, that night I went and I read it. I realized that Jesus was considered to be a prophet.
Mary is really viewed as sort of an expression of perfected womanhood in Islam. I think that sometimes people want to throw babies out with bath water. They might be so concerned or put-off by the fact that people of other faiths don't see Jesus as God, as divine. They seem him as a prophet.
Whereas, I say, "How awesome is that?" That's a huge commonality. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, but to know these were real historical people, that made an impact on many people in that part of the world, who went on to go into other faiths, that the fact that he and Mary were in their faith and important to me, it should be celebrated more. I wish that more Christians knew about this. I didn't know at all.
Ron Way:
Yes. We're not educated in the history of the faith. Do you remember what the apocryphal gospel is that they use? Islam is based a lot of this on Gospel? Do you remember, which one that is?
Courtney Lee:
I knew you were going to ask me and I'm having a bit of a brain lapse. Is it a gospel of Thomas? Is that right?
Ron Way:
Thomas, that’s correct, which we think is probably composed 200 hundred plus years after Jesus’ death. You know, people don't even know that some of our gospels... You know, the date of their composition ranges up to probably right after the beginning of the second century (along with the Gospel of John), and with the Acts of the Apostles (written by the author of the Gospel of Luke).
Thomas was the gospel that they picked. We've recently just discovered it in the west. If you're interested, there are a lot of other gospels you can read, that aren't the four included in the Canon. They came later, and represent different traditions within the Christian communities that evolved later on. It's fascinating reading.
Courtney Lee:
It really is. I sort of thing of it, when have the four Gospels that made it into our version of the bible; we have three synoptic gospels that more or less follow the same kind of time line. Whereas, John is different. To me it's very much a post Easter gospel. It writes about Christ from a much loftier place, more of a divine place, that a ...
Ron Way:
Higher Christology right?
Courtney Lee:
Right. Exactly. I see John as being a bridge between something like Mark, that seemed really close to what was happening, trying to be historical, versus something like gnostic gospels that are coming many years later, where you people have already learned about Jesus' resurrection and made their opinions about that. Seeing how it's treated, by later people, both in these Gnostic gospels and the Koran, I think is really interesting. I think it tells us a lot about the early church if we spend some time there.
Ron Way:
Its' a fascinating period of our history, or mutual history. It's one that I've spend the last 30 plus years studying. Oh my gosh. I can't thank you enough Courtney, for being with us here on our AuthorTalk Show. Thank you, Courtney Hall Lee. Thank you again for the Black Madonna, a Womanist's Look at Mary of Nazareth. Thank you for being on the show.
Courtney Lee:
Oh you're so welcome. Thank you for letting me come to talk about Mary.
Ron Way:
You bet. Have a wonderful day and thanks again.
Courtney Lee:
All right. Thank you. You too.
Ron Way:
Ladies and gentlemen, that's it for the bonus section. Until next time, when we meet again. I remain faithfully yours, Ron Way. Bye, bye.
